- cross-posted to:
- steamdeck@sopuli.xyz
- cross-posted to:
- steamdeck@sopuli.xyz
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All of this anticheat bs is still making the baseline assumption that the problem needs to be solved at the expense of the players.
It’s illegal to steal someone else’s property. We don’t enforce that law by cutting off everyone’s hands preemptively so that there is less demand on police to solve a problem that hasn’t happened yet…
If people are assholes and go against the wishes of society, you police and moderate them. If they can’t moderate their platform, that isn’t the fault of the community - it’s a failing of the corporation. It’s such a ridiculous mindset. It’s a fucking video game…
You deserve an upvote from everyone and anyone whomst has ever played a video game online
Make fun of Apex all you want, it was the best performing game of its kind on the Deck and kept me from selling my Deck sooner. Now, I’m even a Linux convert because of how well games like Apex worked away from their Windows origins. Seeing a large game like this be killed off on Linux is awful. I’m not sure where the blame lies (with EA, right?) but it needs to be fixed.
The problem are kernel-anticheats, and EA of course.
I mean, the problem is kind of fundamental. They have a competitive multiplayer game. Many competitive multiplayer games are vulnerable to cheating if you can manipulate the client software; some software just can’t really be hardened and still deal with latency and such reasonably. Consoles are reasonably well locked down. PCs are not, and trying to clamp down on them at all is a pain – there are lots of holes to modify the software. Linux is specifically made to be open and thus modifiable. You’re never going to get major Linux distros committing to a closed system.
Frankly, my answer has been “Consoles are really the right answer for competitive multiplayer, not PCs.” It’s not just the cheating issue, but that you also want a level playing field, and PCs fundamentally are not that. Someone can, to at least some degree, pay to win with higher framerates or resolution or a more-responsive system on a PC.
My guess is that the most-realistic way to do do games like this on the PC is to introduce some kind of trusted hardware sufficient to handle all the critical data in a game, like a PCI card or something, and then stick critical portions of the game on that trusted hardware. But that infrastructure doesn’t exist today, and it’s still trying to make an open system imperfectly act like a closed one.
I think that the real answer here is to use consoles for that, because they already are what game developers are after – a locked-down, non-expandable system. In the specific context of competitive multiplayer games, that’s desirable. I don’t like it for most other things, but consoles are well-suited to that.
My own personal guess is the even longer run answer is going to be a slow shift away from multiplayer games.
Inexpensive, low-latency, long-range data connectivity started to give multiplayer games a boost around 2000-ish. Suddenly, it was possible to play a lot of games against people remotely. And there are neat things you can do with multiplayer games. Humans are a sophisticated, “smarter game AI”. They have their own problems, like sometimes doing things that aren’t fun for other players – like cheating – but if you can rely on other players, you don’t have to write a lot of complicated game AI.
The problem is that it also comes with a lot of drawbacks. You can’t pause most multiplayer games, and even when you do, it’s disruptive. If you’re, say, raising a kid who can get themselves into trouble, not being able to simply stand up and walk away from the keyboard is kinda limiting. You cannot play a multiplayer game without data connectivity. At some point, the game isn’t going to be playable any more, as the player base falls off and central servers go away. You have to deal with other people exploiting the game in various ways that aren’t fun for other players. That could be a game’s meta evolving to use strategies that aren’t very much fun to counter, or cheating, or people just abusing other people. Yeah, you can try to structure a game to discourage that, but we’ve been working on that for many years and griefing and such is still a thing.
Writing game AI is hard and expensive, but I think that in the long run, what we’re going to do is to see game AI take up a lot of the slack. I think that we’re going to to see advances in generic game AI engines, the sort of way we do graphics or sound engines, where one company makes a game AI software package that is reused in many, many games and only slightly tweaked by the game developers.
Multiplayer games are always going to be around, short of us hitting human-level AI. But I think that the trend will be towards single-player games over time, just because of those technical limitations I mentioned. I think that where multiplayer happens, it’ll be more-frequently with people that someone knows – someone’s friends or spouse or such – and where someone specifically wants to interact with that other person, and where the human isn’t just a faceless random person filling in for a smart piece of game AI that doesn’t exist. That’d also hopefully solve the cheating problem.
Developers have full control over servers in most cases. A viable server side anti cheat should be a thing. For every case of “client sending false data to server” we can come up with a solution to verify that to some degree. Finally, it should help a lot to rely on player generated reports and utilize replay recording on server.
But no, developers will continue to rely on 3rd party solutions (made by people who never developed a game), even infect their co-op-only games with it, and complain “uh oh we can’t handle Linux cheaters”.
I was with you up until the shift away from multiplayer part. I do not see that happening at all, and I don’t even like multiplayer games myself. There’s no denying that more multiplayer has been the trend for the last 30 years, spanning multiple (people) generations, and I don’t see AI changing that.
Some ways I could see the problem at least partially resolved on PC are: Returning to server-side validation, and designing games such that player location knowledge and aiming reflexes are not always the biggest tests for victory. Hackers may, in fact, develop wallhacks and aimhacks for such a game, but may exhibit frustration finding these alone don’t necessarily bag them a win because of bad tactical decisionmaking.
Such games wouldn’t be realistic tactical shooters in the vein of COD, though.
Ain’t the modern hardware already got the trusted hardware, namely TEE?
The problem is EAs business model for this game. It is free to pay, so EA need to extract money otherwise. They introduce some gamified resource collection and crafting with exponentially rising costs, etc. And hope that gamers circumvent that by buying stuff with real money. Now players don’t all want or can’t do that, and look for alternative solutions.
So EAs business model drives people to cheat. To cheat them primarily and other players secondarily.
And because of their business model, they cannot solve the cheating between players by giving them dedicated servers or just let them P2P match, because they would loose control over them and their ability to extract more money.
There was a time when my steam friend preasured me to get Apex Legends, but I refused because of piece of shit EA. Seems I made a right choice.
But then again nobody plays that anymore, so nothing gained, nothing lost.
EA fucked us out of a TitanFall 3. And a 3rd Alice from American McGee
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What a shame, my kid plays this on our Linux pc, he’s gonna be devastated.
That sucks.
Apex was the game I played with my friends to keep in touch long distance. Guess I gotta find something new now. Sure as he’ll ain’t installing Win11 for it.
I guess it’s been a long time coming. The dev decisions and priorities the last few years have really made it feel like I’m the last person they want playing their game.
If you are looking for a semi competitive shooter, I’d highly recommend The Finals. Tons of fun and solid gun play. Game isn’t officially supported but runs great on linux.
Deep Rock Galactic?
Let me guess without reading: kernel-level anti-cheat?
Nope. They had anti cheat that supported it, but they experienced higher issues with cheating via linux than elsewhere. Which sucks. People who cheat suck.
I’m curious to see how Valve will respond to this seeing as they have CS. I imagine they’d be interested to build a solution but I’m not sure how plausible that even is.
I never understand why when this happens the solution is always “cut off everyone” instead of placing Linux players in a lower trust lobby
That would just cause legit Linux players to generate negativity by always being stuck with cheaters. It’s way easier to just remove support if it really is most of your cheating problems for such a small player base.
Linux users are starting to sound like a bunch of entitled dicks. /s
It’s EAC, which is kernel level on Windows but not on Linux. I guess they wanted to go full kernel-level anti-cheat.
It’s using EAC which supports Linux.
eh, i switched to the finals.
apex matchmaking is trash and i hope it dies.
W take, The Finals is the best!
Man I’ve not heard about the finals in a while. I remember I played it every day for two week straight and got everything for my class. Is it better now than at launch?
i believe so. they added stuff, the core gameplay is the same.
its fun
Ok, we kinda don’t give a shit about that toxic dead game.
It is still a loss for linux gamers.
Technically yes but a rather insignificant one. Fuck them.
I think apex legends is still one of the highest concurrent player games on Steam. I think top is like csgo, apex legends, rust, maybe deadlock? I haven’t been online in a while but this is probably how it is based the last time I checked.
Oh no! Anyways…
Wouldn’t put it on my deck if it printed me a 5 dollar bill every day.
Nor on my cell phone.
