I don’t know the ideologies of the protestors, but I do agree with protesting against “big cycling”. Cycling around on a trusty steel bike which you can repair yourself is environmentally friendly. Buying a new carbon fiber bike every few years because it is 2% more aero than the last is not. Instead of standardized parts, the cycling industry wants you to buy cheap ones that break fast, and can only be replaced with their specific parts. They sell this to you by including some upgrades in chains, cassettes etc. The cycling industry is the same as any other industry, it exists to make profits. Truly sustainable things do not come from making profits.
I can see this argument, but I just hate the way the industry is heading, to extract as much money as possible by selling upgrades, new frames, etc etc. The price of a new bike has also risen 2-3x since before COVID and won’t go down. Frame materials are becoming more resource intensive, parts are becoming less replaceable and more proprietary.
I’ve commuted to work by bicycle maybe 2 decades out of my career of almost 3 decades, NEVER with any bicyle worth more than 200 EUR (during my time in The Netherlands I always got second hand bicycles … well, more likely 4th or 5h hand) and you clearly have no fucking clue what you’re talking about.
You’re talking about, maybe, the consumer high-end “recreative” cycling, the kind that’s sold to fad-following consumers who will at most pull out the bicycle on a weekend day, put on a “Tour de France” disguise (complete with “sponsor” sticks) and go cycle to be seen cycling.
In countries were people actually cycle for utility purposes those are a tiny fraction of people and the “cycling industry” is something else altogether than what you describe. Normal people use normal bicycles which are not too expensive, especially because you really don’t want to park a 1000+ EUR on the street, not if you want to come back and still find all of it there.
Further, even at the high-end, the actual pros know how to fix their own bicycles and know the value of standardized components: it’s really only the “two-wheel fashionistas” that would go for overpriced bicycles with non-standard elements.
Going after cycling because of a few idiots (and there are idiots in every human endeavour) and calling it pro-Ecology is the pinnacle of stupidity and doing the work of the enemy.
I am indeed talking about consumer high-end cycling, and I see it poisoning peoples minds in my city with their marketing that says to be eco-friendly and cycle to work you have to buy a brand new bike for £1000. I am arguing about the case in my city and the direction I don’t want to see cycling in general take. I agree with you that in many places, cycling is much better, the Netherlands is a great example. I am not going after cycling as a whole, just the rich directors of Shimano, SRAM, Trek, Specialized, etc. that have greenwashed expensive high-end cycling and make people believe that they need the latest stuff. I am not saying that the industry is already in a bad place, just that it could head that way.
So what’s the problem if the high-end consumer types are being fleeced by a subset of the industry?! There being a segment of the industry fleecing them is sorta the standard for all people who take a fashionista approach to anything, not just cycling: the crowd doing stuff to be seen doing stuff are always feeding from and feeding back a whole segment selling overpriced “for show” stuff. I mean, think Fashion (the clothing and shoes one): there’s High Fashion for people with more money than sense and then there’s a far far larger segment of the industry for everybody else.
During my time cycling in London I kept on doing it in a relaxed way like in The Netherlands (even though the cycling facilities in London were laughable compared to those in even the smallest of dutch towns) and yeah, there were plenty of what I called “Les tour de France” (fancy bicyle, kitted like they’re in The Tour complete with fake sponsor sticks) commuting right along with me but that didn’t seem to make any difference for the regular cycling community or their access to decently priced equipment.
Sure, whilst on one hand seeing people out there commuting by bicycle over-dressed (if you will) might make many think they need all that kit to do it, on the other seeing lots of people cycling on the road also gives confidence to others that “it’s not that dangerous after all” and inspires them to try it, plus also trains the other road users to properly account for bicycles sharing the road with them. Certainly this is what I saw during my years commuting to work by bicycle in London when, in 6 or 7 years, it went from quite niche to a lot more common.
As far as I can tell either there is really no difference for the wider cycling community that such people exists or they might even be subsidizing the rest by overpaying for untested new equipment which sometimes ends up getting adapted for the broader community (and there standards do matter and a parts maker is not really going to be able to sell parts that require bulk cycle manufacturers to make custom solutions just for those parts) plus they’re helping to get everybody else used to there being bicycles on the road.
Yes it does. Most people do not buy new bike every few years nor is there a mass migration away from standardized parts. The person was arguing a strawman.
I’m not arguing against a strawman, I’m arguing against an extreme case. In the city where I live, people buying loads of fancy new expensive bikes to seem “eco-friendly” is large. The number of high-end bike shops is large. Repair costs are extreme; £60 for a medium job. This is of course, a predominantly white, affluent city. I regularly see new gravel and commuter bikes (the latest trend) manufactured by the likes of Specialized, Trek, Canyon. These cost in the region of £1000 ± 200. I agree that there is not mass migration away from standard parts yet, but I am worried that that is the direction the cycling industry wants to take. There is already an explosion of different cassette standards, meaning you need unique tools to change many of the new cassettes. Disk brakes add complexity and expense, and your average commuter bike arguably does not need disk brakes, they are just a shiny addition to make it more marketable. My argument is against the increase of these expensive bikes, fancy parts and brands that produce them, as it just pushes people away from cycling and the ecological and health benefits it can bring.
Yes, I have cycled a fair amount and raced too. Now I have downscaled my cycling to just getting around. Would you care to elaborate? If I was not clear I would like to explain myself. I knew many people who were always looking for the next upgrade to get a little performance boost, and willing to pay a great deal of money for it.
What’s to elaborate? Modern bikes are miles better than anything made 20 years ago and components last forever, especially ebike certified components. And you can still fix everything yourself for pennies. Including the most complex pneumatic suspension.
I would argue the difference between modern bikes and old bikes for short to medium commutes (<1 hr) is immaterial. I have commuted on a carbon racing bike, an aluminum gravel bike (~£500) and a ~40 year old steel road bike I got for £20. Of course the carbon bike is very light and fast, but it has a massively greater ecological and financial cost. The aluminium gravel bike is pretty nice to ride, but not significantly different to the steel bike, which I actually find more comfortable on the road. The rotors on the gravel bike will soon need to be replaced, and that will probably be £100. I would agree with you that some modern components are better, notably corrosion resistant chains and puncture-resistant tyres. I would disagree on repair costs, in my experience, a repair at a shop in my city will cost at least £30 for something very simple like a new chain (which I can fit myself for less), and a while ago I had to pay £60 to replace a Di2 cable that got severed. (It went through the BB and I don’t have the tools to take out and refit a BB).
Puncture resistant tyres plus tubeless setup is already saving you and the planet a lot of resources.
As for repair shop prices, well I fix everything myself. And that’s the whole point - unlike with all other tech, you can still fix your bike yourself and you can infinitely upgrade it if required.
Why do you think 13 gear cassettes are a thing? The chain has to be thinner and everything is much more precise. Add to that mechanical load and it is much worse for every casual rider in reliability than the older 2x9, 3x9 systems.
But you can still buy all the older systems.
It’s not like they stopped producing or supporting older standards.
Both my local shop and the webshop I use have all cassettes from 7-12 gears. Neither currently has 13 gear cassetes, though.
First of all 2x and 3x systems are NOT reliable at all and must die. Second 1x10 systems are cheap AF and will last you a very long time. Especially modern ones made to sustain ebikes. They will outlast any 2x and 3x shit and work much much better in all and every scenario.
Cycling around on a trusty steel bike which you can repair yourself is environmentally friendly. Buying a new carbon fiber bike every few years because it is 2% more aero than the last is not.
These are not the only options. Carbon fiber is superior to steel for the purpose of making a bicycle. You could buy 1 carbon fiber bike and ride it for years.
I don’t know the ideologies of the protestors, but I do agree with protesting against “big cycling”. Cycling around on a trusty steel bike which you can repair yourself is environmentally friendly. Buying a new carbon fiber bike every few years because it is 2% more aero than the last is not. Instead of standardized parts, the cycling industry wants you to buy cheap ones that break fast, and can only be replaced with their specific parts. They sell this to you by including some upgrades in chains, cassettes etc. The cycling industry is the same as any other industry, it exists to make profits. Truly sustainable things do not come from making profits.
Few “big bicycling” inspires a lot of “small bicycling”
I can see this argument, but I just hate the way the industry is heading, to extract as much money as possible by selling upgrades, new frames, etc etc. The price of a new bike has also risen 2-3x since before COVID and won’t go down. Frame materials are becoming more resource intensive, parts are becoming less replaceable and more proprietary.
I’ve commuted to work by bicycle maybe 2 decades out of my career of almost 3 decades, NEVER with any bicyle worth more than 200 EUR (during my time in The Netherlands I always got second hand bicycles … well, more likely 4th or 5h hand) and you clearly have no fucking clue what you’re talking about.
You’re talking about, maybe, the consumer high-end “recreative” cycling, the kind that’s sold to fad-following consumers who will at most pull out the bicycle on a weekend day, put on a “Tour de France” disguise (complete with “sponsor” sticks) and go cycle to be seen cycling.
In countries were people actually cycle for utility purposes those are a tiny fraction of people and the “cycling industry” is something else altogether than what you describe. Normal people use normal bicycles which are not too expensive, especially because you really don’t want to park a 1000+ EUR on the street, not if you want to come back and still find all of it there.
Further, even at the high-end, the actual pros know how to fix their own bicycles and know the value of standardized components: it’s really only the “two-wheel fashionistas” that would go for overpriced bicycles with non-standard elements.
Going after cycling because of a few idiots (and there are idiots in every human endeavour) and calling it pro-Ecology is the pinnacle of stupidity and doing the work of the enemy.
I am indeed talking about consumer high-end cycling, and I see it poisoning peoples minds in my city with their marketing that says to be eco-friendly and cycle to work you have to buy a brand new bike for £1000. I am arguing about the case in my city and the direction I don’t want to see cycling in general take. I agree with you that in many places, cycling is much better, the Netherlands is a great example. I am not going after cycling as a whole, just the rich directors of Shimano, SRAM, Trek, Specialized, etc. that have greenwashed expensive high-end cycling and make people believe that they need the latest stuff. I am not saying that the industry is already in a bad place, just that it could head that way.
So what’s the problem if the high-end consumer types are being fleeced by a subset of the industry?! There being a segment of the industry fleecing them is sorta the standard for all people who take a fashionista approach to anything, not just cycling: the crowd doing stuff to be seen doing stuff are always feeding from and feeding back a whole segment selling overpriced “for show” stuff. I mean, think Fashion (the clothing and shoes one): there’s High Fashion for people with more money than sense and then there’s a far far larger segment of the industry for everybody else.
During my time cycling in London I kept on doing it in a relaxed way like in The Netherlands (even though the cycling facilities in London were laughable compared to those in even the smallest of dutch towns) and yeah, there were plenty of what I called “Les tour de France” (fancy bicyle, kitted like they’re in The Tour complete with fake sponsor sticks) commuting right along with me but that didn’t seem to make any difference for the regular cycling community or their access to decently priced equipment.
Sure, whilst on one hand seeing people out there commuting by bicycle over-dressed (if you will) might make many think they need all that kit to do it, on the other seeing lots of people cycling on the road also gives confidence to others that “it’s not that dangerous after all” and inspires them to try it, plus also trains the other road users to properly account for bicycles sharing the road with them. Certainly this is what I saw during my years commuting to work by bicycle in London when, in 6 or 7 years, it went from quite niche to a lot more common.
As far as I can tell either there is really no difference for the wider cycling community that such people exists or they might even be subsidizing the rest by overpaying for untested new equipment which sometimes ends up getting adapted for the broader community (and there standards do matter and a parts maker is not really going to be able to sell parts that require bulk cycle manufacturers to make custom solutions just for those parts) plus they’re helping to get everybody else used to there being bicycles on the road.
You clearly didn’t read what they wrote, and then went on a tirade about it.
Nothing you said really applies as a retort to the other user’s comment.
Yes it does. Most people do not buy new bike every few years nor is there a mass migration away from standardized parts. The person was arguing a strawman.
I’m not arguing against a strawman, I’m arguing against an extreme case. In the city where I live, people buying loads of fancy new expensive bikes to seem “eco-friendly” is large. The number of high-end bike shops is large. Repair costs are extreme; £60 for a medium job. This is of course, a predominantly white, affluent city. I regularly see new gravel and commuter bikes (the latest trend) manufactured by the likes of Specialized, Trek, Canyon. These cost in the region of £1000 ± 200. I agree that there is not mass migration away from standard parts yet, but I am worried that that is the direction the cycling industry wants to take. There is already an explosion of different cassette standards, meaning you need unique tools to change many of the new cassettes. Disk brakes add complexity and expense, and your average commuter bike arguably does not need disk brakes, they are just a shiny addition to make it more marketable. My argument is against the increase of these expensive bikes, fancy parts and brands that produce them, as it just pushes people away from cycling and the ecological and health benefits it can bring.
Have you ever cycled in your life? Because that’s not how it works.
Yes, I have cycled a fair amount and raced too. Now I have downscaled my cycling to just getting around. Would you care to elaborate? If I was not clear I would like to explain myself. I knew many people who were always looking for the next upgrade to get a little performance boost, and willing to pay a great deal of money for it.
What’s to elaborate? Modern bikes are miles better than anything made 20 years ago and components last forever, especially ebike certified components. And you can still fix everything yourself for pennies. Including the most complex pneumatic suspension.
I would argue the difference between modern bikes and old bikes for short to medium commutes (<1 hr) is immaterial. I have commuted on a carbon racing bike, an aluminum gravel bike (~£500) and a ~40 year old steel road bike I got for £20. Of course the carbon bike is very light and fast, but it has a massively greater ecological and financial cost. The aluminium gravel bike is pretty nice to ride, but not significantly different to the steel bike, which I actually find more comfortable on the road. The rotors on the gravel bike will soon need to be replaced, and that will probably be £100. I would agree with you that some modern components are better, notably corrosion resistant chains and puncture-resistant tyres. I would disagree on repair costs, in my experience, a repair at a shop in my city will cost at least £30 for something very simple like a new chain (which I can fit myself for less), and a while ago I had to pay £60 to replace a Di2 cable that got severed. (It went through the BB and I don’t have the tools to take out and refit a BB).
Puncture resistant tyres plus tubeless setup is already saving you and the planet a lot of resources.
As for repair shop prices, well I fix everything myself. And that’s the whole point - unlike with all other tech, you can still fix your bike yourself and you can infinitely upgrade it if required.
Why do you think 13 gear cassettes are a thing? The chain has to be thinner and everything is much more precise. Add to that mechanical load and it is much worse for every casual rider in reliability than the older 2x9, 3x9 systems.
But you can still buy all the older systems. It’s not like they stopped producing or supporting older standards. Both my local shop and the webshop I use have all cassettes from 7-12 gears. Neither currently has 13 gear cassetes, though.
First of all 2x and 3x systems are NOT reliable at all and must die. Second 1x10 systems are cheap AF and will last you a very long time. Especially modern ones made to sustain ebikes. They will outlast any 2x and 3x shit and work much much better in all and every scenario.
These are not the only options. Carbon fiber is superior to steel for the purpose of making a bicycle. You could buy 1 carbon fiber bike and ride it for years.